I have a Youngs Model C 180 amp arc welder, which has 6 KVA on the data plate, what is the correct size circuit breaker for this unit? I have a 16mm cable going out to the workshop so that shouldn't be a limiting factor.
tweake,
Dec 11, 5:21am
circuit breaker is for the protection of the cable not the welder. depends on what wiring you have from the fuse board to the outlet. i would have to check, its either 20 or 25 amp on mine, 15 amp plug. workshop is on a 30 breaker.
bill1451,
Dec 11, 5:29am
6000/230= 26 amps at full bore, although depending what work you are doing it might not always be. To be safe probably I would go to a 32A caravan round plug and run some 4mm tps with a 32amp circuit breaker. This also has the advantage that your mates cant "borrow" it unless they have a socket. the other option is to use a stove socket and plug, these are rated at 32Amp.
bill1451,
Dec 11, 5:32am
The only component heavier in a so called 15A plug is the wider earth pin, IMHO it is a misnomer as some people take a pair of side cutters or hacksaw to the earth pin to size it down to normal, 2.5 cable is rated at 20 amps, your choice your insurance.
tweake,
Dec 11, 6:02am
i would not fit a 32 amp circuit breaker, simply because your whole workshop is probably on a 30/32 amp breaker. its a real pain if you trip the house breaker instead of the workshop one.
i just checked mine and its a 20 amp breaker. i run 180 amp mig/stick and 200 amp tig. never tripped it yet. tho they are inverters not transformers.
general rule of thumb is you never use welders at their max anyway.
tygertung,
Dec 11, 6:10am
It is on a 25 amp breaker and when only welding at about 120-140 amps on Aluminium (it has a high frequency unit on it, and water cooled tig setup on it) it would start tripping the breaker. It was a real nuisance as the area needed a lot of heat as aluminium is a fantastic conductor of heat.
The outlet is only about 500mm from the fuseboard, and has thick wiring. It probably just needs a different socket and a bigger breaker. It's on a 25 amp socket now.
Workshop seems to be on a 32 amp breaker, so could maybe have a 30 amp breaker on the the welder and would leave 2 amps for the lights.
tweake,
Dec 11, 6:58am
if your welding aluminium do yourself a favor and get a 200 amp ac/dc tig welder. it won't have the breaker issues, far better welding and can easily do thicker material (i'm guessing your only doing up to 2mm at those amps). also won't have the torch and tungsten issues.
vivac,
Dec 11, 9:48am
I willing to bet you have the wrong type of circuit breaker, get your electrician to fit one with a different curve for your welder.
tygertung,
Dec 11, 7:12pm
This one is AC/DC because it has a rectifier unit as well. It is a pretty old school tig setup, home made by some electrical genius. I learnt how to tig weld during my aircraft engineering apprenticeship, and this welder seems to be reasonably good compared to the giant miller I always used there.
The only downside is no current control foot pedal, so what you set is what you get. I did have fun one time when welding some thin aluminium as that after a while the heat soak make everything get a bit hot and I had to get moving real fast as the heat moved around the job.
I will probably make a foot pedal current control circuit at some point for it. I already have the high current SCDs for it.
6 KVA is 26.087 amps at 230v so maybe about 4 amps would be enough headroom?
Whilst it would be nice to get a 200 amp ac/dc tig welder, I don't have the 2 grand it would cost me.
johotech,
Dec 11, 7:59pm
Get an electrician to check the wiring and sort out the circuit breaker sizes for the submain and the socket circuit. If the 25A plug and socket isn't being damaged, that doesn't necessarily need to be changed even if the circuit breaker is changed to 32A.
bill1451,
Dec 12, 12:33am
16mm good for 60amps depending on length of run but you have plenty of "headroom" if you did need to upgrade welder circuit breaker, although as has been said, welders are rarely used full blast and then probably only 15 min per hour (25%) on a really good day, unless you are doing production runs,( meh not that organised here.)
tweake,
Dec 12, 4:46am
keep an eye out, a few pop up at around $1k. boc have just replaced their ac/dc welder with a new model, might be able to pick up the old model for $1k (they where $1200 at one point) and they come with a nice ck torch.
the reason i say all that is most 140 amp welders these days run off a 10 amp plug and your having issues on a 25 amp breaker. i assume no balance control which makes it hard on torches etc and reduces heat into the weld.
tygertung,
Dec 12, 5:43am
No no balance control, so it does reduce the heat into the weld, but i have good water cooling so the torch never gets hot.
I don't have $1k either, so will just stick with what I have. I don't do a great deal of welding, so can't justify it currently.
tweake,
Dec 12, 5:47am
envious
tegretol,
Dec 12, 10:28am
The CB ain't determined by the appliance as it's there to protect the downstream cable. That's why the sizing responsibility for the appliances cable is down to the manufacturer.
tygertung,
Dec 12, 5:14pm
I would suggest that the CB size is determined by the appliance's current requirements, especially as there is a circuit specially dedicated to that one appliance.
tegretol,
Dec 12, 10:33pm
A competant sparky will size the wire and socket to suit what you are loading it with. But he'll then size the CB to suit the wire/socket (and not the appliance).
tweake,
Dec 13, 12:54am
just remember that appliances have their own built in fuse or circuit breaker. no need to size the fuse board circuit breaker to the appliance as the appliances own fuse/circuit breaker should trip first.
tygertung,
Dec 13, 12:59am
They only sometimes have an internal fuse.
tweake,
Dec 13, 2:07am
i would say most appliances here have internal fuses. the only thing i have that has an external fuse is my tig welder. its euro style where they use a circuit breaker as the on/off switch. tho common to have external thermal overloads external on electric motors.
you should be tripping the appliances own fuse well before your tripping the house fuse.
tygertung,
Dec 13, 2:43am
And if I am not tripping the appliance's own fuse before the house fuse?
tweake,
Dec 13, 2:51am
then its not wired to an appropriate circuit. ie the appliance is to big for the wiring. the circuit breaker is doing its job to save the wiring. like when people cut down 15 amp plugs to fit a 10 amp socket and they keep tripping the 16 amp circuit breaker.
tweake,
Dec 13, 3:27am
i would be inclined to go fit a 32 amp socket and wiring and use a 25 amp breaker. that should give you enough power without risking tripping the house 30 amp breaker for the workshop.
i see you can get 20 and 25 amp sockets, but i have not seen them in person.
btw what thickness aluminium are you welding at 140 amps?
tygertung,
Dec 13, 6:36am
It already has a 25 amp breaker and is tripping. The wiring from the sub board to the socket is big enough and very short. It is a dedicated circuit for the welder and was designed and installed only for the welder.
Unfortunately 30 amp circuit breakers are not avaliable, only 32 amp, but if there is a 32 amp breaker on the sub board (the main breaker on the sub board is 63 amp) and there is a 32 amp breaker on the main board which feeds the sub board, it isn't going to be the end of the world if it trips the one on the main board.
I dare say the breaker feeding the sub board could safely be increased, but not by too much, as it would be a bother if the main breaker on the main board trips.
The aluminium I was welding was only about 3-4 mm, but it was at an intersection which was sucking out a lot of head which was causing the main issues.
tweake,
Dec 13, 7:35am
i think sub boards are meant to be only 32amp, hopefully a sparky will correct me if i'm wrong (i would love to upgrade mine).
i think your amp dial on the welder is miles off. your way way above 140 amps. that explains why your drawing so much the breaker is tripping.
an easier way around this may simply be to pre heat before welding and keep the amps lower.
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